Little River Airport Advisory Committee minutes 4/26/98 meeting A meeting of The Little River Airport Advisory Committee was held at the Woods Clubhouse on Sunday, April 26, 1998, at 4:00pm. The agenda for this meeting had been posted at the Little River Airport and at the Little River Post Office. Present at the meeting were committee members: Tim Scully, Susan Winding, Dave Brewer, Trey Loy, Willow Trent and Joel Bornstein. Lee Edmundson arrived at the meeting at 4:30pm. Also participating in the meeting were: Grant Wheeler, Judith Barry, and Peter Heine, who acted as host. minutes of earlier meetings --------------------------- Susan Winding requested that the phrase "Patrick Bulmer doesn't know anything" be deleted. Willow Trent pointed out that some of the amendments we planned for the final GPS report didn't get into the final report. She mentioned a correction about declined medical airlifts and a plan to bracket the comments from the Ukiah air freight pilots. Tim Scully said that the "ILS GPS" error was also still present. The minutes of the 3/22 and 3/29 meetings were approved as amended. Communications: -------------- Tim Scully reported on the Board of Supervisors meeting in Ukiah. He said that the Supervisors accepted the GPS report and unanimously voted to accept the recommendations in it. They thanked the committee for its hard work on this issue. Susan Winding said that she heard for the first time in Ukiah that the altimeter setting would be usable for up to one hour after the observation had been made. She was concerned that this would extend the usability of the GPS approach from 10Pm to 11PM, and said that she would not have voted in favor of it, if she knew this. Dave Brewer explained that this was not a problem. The validity of the altimeter setting and clearance to fly the GPS approach are two different things. He also said the main importance of this is for the local altimeter setting. If Les Proctor makes his last observation at 5PM, the local altimeter setting will be usable until 6PM. Tim Scully said that Oakland Center will not issue clearance for the approach after 10PM. Susan Winding asked, but can they issue it when the pilot is still an hour away from landing? Joel Bornstein amplified by explaining that the approach clearance is issued when the pilot is about 5 miles from Little River, near the final approach fix. This is about 3 minutes from landing. Susan Winding expressed relief. Trey Loy asked if pilots accepted the 10pm to 7am restriction on the GPS approach. Tim Scully said that several expressed concern about the restriction, but that almost everyone understands the compromise - pilots gave up something and so did neighbors of the airport. Joel Bornstein said that few pilots are concerned about late arrivals because very few pilots arrive late. Susan Winding said that she phoned Diana Wiederman and explained the outcome of the GPS issue. Roxanne Withers phoned Lee Edmundson to ask for details. Dave Brewer said, so the system is working. The concerns of local citizens are being handled locally. Susan Winding explained that, being a good salesperson, she phoned after the committee's vote to explain. Joel Bornstein said to Susan WInding, if you ever have questions about technicalities, feel free to call. He'll either answer or do research to find an answer. Dave Brewer said, here is the file with raw data from the pilot survey. Where should this be stored? Should the data go into the committee's files or to DPW in Ukiah? The data includes 4 survey responses received late and thus never opened. Tim Scully said that one possibility would be to store the data at the airport. Or, he offered, they could be stored in his library, with the other committee files. If people want copies, he would like to collect a copying fee to cover the cost of copying. Trey Loy said that the committee's files will get large, but contain valuable information and should be preserved. Joel Bornstein said that if they are stored at the airport, parts of the files will get lost. We should keep control of them. Grant Wheeler said that the Mendocino COmmunity Services District, where he is involved in waste water treatment and ground water, has lots of paper, some of it expensive consultant's reports. At one time people came in to borrow documents with the best intentions and lost originals. Now they have a no borrowing policy and a charge for making copies. Susan Winding said, the city charges 10 cents a page if they copy it for you, and they have a "loaner" copy of the file which you can briefly check out so you can get it copied cheaper elsewhere. Tim Scully said that he has an older copier and that 10 cents a copy is reasonable. Joel Bornstein said that he recently used a copier with autofeed and collating ability. Tim Scully said that his copier doesn't do either of these, but that he did recently buy a laser printer capable of duplexing, which will help with the minutes. time, date and place of meetings -------------------------------- Trey Loy opened the discussion of when to hold AAC meetings by saying that he prefers weekday evenings. He is not available during working hours during the week. Willow Trent said that she prefers weekday evenings or Friday mornings a 8am. Susan Winding said that she prefers weeknights, she can't do Thursday noon and if the meeting is in the morning, she prefers 8am. Tim Scully said that he works in the Bay Area Monday through Thursday, but can meet Friday through Sunday 6pm. Lee Edmundson arrived. Joel Bornstein said that he could meet any time, he prefers daytime before 6PM. Lee Edmundson said that 8am is out of the question. After 10am is minimal. Afternoons and evenings are ok. Trey Loy expressed concern about public access to our meetings if we hold them in the daytime on weekdays. Dave Brewer responded that the Board of Supervisors and other County bodies schedule their meetings for weekdays. Willow Trent suggested that we could hold any necessary community meetings on weekends. Trey Loy said that he would prefer not to come in so early as 8am. Lee Edmundson said, what's wrong with 4pm on Sunday? Willow Trent said, I work like a dog, would prefer not to meet on weekends. Tim Scully asked, what about Friday afternoons? Trey Loy said, Sunday might be all right if we are only meeting once a month. Dave Brewer said that he sees a conflict between Trey's problem with weekdays and several people's desire to meet on a weekday. Susan said, if we are only meeting once a month... Lee Edmundson said, the real work will be done in subcommittees. Hopefully we won't have another crunch, but if necessary we can do it again and meet more frequently. Trey Loy asked, can we really get the work done if we only meet once a month? Susan Winding responded, we never had subcommittees, we need to put them in place. Trey Loy said, if we only meet once a month, I could do it on Friday. Willow Trent agreed, that if it is only once a month, she could also meet on Friday. Dave Brewer said that 8am Friday is a little early. Trey Loy said that Sunday 4-6 is also good. Susan Winding asked Lee Edmundson about plays. Lee Edmundson said that except for setup weeks, he'll be ok. Someone suggested Friday at 9am. Susan Winding said, as long as it isn't first Friday. Dave Brewer suggested, 4th Friday at 9am. Joel Bornstein asked if we should plan to meet for more than 2 hours. Tim Scully said that it is hard to keep our focus of attention for longer. Dave Brewer said that he hopes we can get most of our work done outside the full committee meetings, in subcommittees. We need to look at that process. Trey Loy said, when I work with people, I like lots of little meetings. Dave Brewer agreed, yes, it keeps people honest. Someone asked, is the meeting room available on Friday mornings? Lee Edmundson asked if we could meet at Coast Flyers if necessary. Joel Bornstein said, no. Tim Scully asked, how about the airport office? Judith Barry said that Grace can't commit The Woods today, the request needs to come through Dick Ahrens and be reviewed by The Woods management. We agreed to schedule our next meeting for Friday May 15 from 9 to 11am. Tim Scully said, I'll send email to Dick Ahrens and ask if he can sponsor our meeting at the Woods. Dave Brewer said, I'll find an alternate site, if necessary. Lee Edmundson said, looking at the 3/29 minutes, said it is Robert's Rules of Order, not the Brown Act. Tim Scully responded, yes, I got that correction from you by email - the printed copy you have today is from Joel and is out of date. Susan Winding said, the Board of Supervisors commented that they were delighted they hadn't received more comments regarding GPS. Roxanne called you, Lee, didn't she? Lee Edmundson said, Roxanne and I exchanged email. She was concerned about the SEQA element and the Environmental Impact Report. I explained that the FAA is the lead agency, with the Board of Supervisors the responsible agency. Due to low population density, the FAA will sign off on a negative declaration. I cautioned her to be cautious of the percentages of impact estimated in our report, the absolute numbers are small. Further, the Supervisors won't pay for an expensive EIR. And, in my opinion, there is no impact. She (Roxanne) said, that makes sense. She is a procedure oriented person. She was uncomfortable that this committee didn't discuss the EIR. She was not prepared to object and saw no groundswell of opposition. Joel Bornstein said, I wish the people with questions would come to our meetings. Lee Edmundson said, she did feel that she had an ear to communicate with. election of officers -------------------- Dave Brewer asked, what officers do we want to elect? Chair, Vice-Chair and Secretary are probably the minimum. Trey Loy said that in the past we have let Tim do it all and it has worked out pretty well. Susan Winding nominated Dave Brewer for chair. She said, the chair should be here all week long if subcommittees are going to be busy working. Trey Loy said, Joel did well with the minutes. Tim Scully asked Susan WInding, what's your concern about subcommittees? Susan Winding said, subcommittees will meet during the week. Joel Bornstein said, your subcommittee can meet during the week, mine can meet on weekends. Grant Wheeler said, you may want to ask if anyone else is willing... Lee Edmundson said, I have no problem with either Tim or Dave. Willow Trent asked, what about you [Lee]? Lee Edmundson said, if it works, don't fix it. Trey Loy said, what Tim tried to do is give each person an equal chance. Dave Brewer asked, should we separate the taking of minutes from the job of chair? How important is are detailed minutes? Lee Edmundson said, all that Robert's Rules of Order requires are motions and votes. Trey Loy said, I have really appreciated detailed minutes, they got everyone's point in. Dave Brewer said to Joel Bornstein, when you did it, you took long form minutes too. Joel Bornstein said, I was asked to. Trey Loy said, the perception that Tim has control of the committee has been easing up. Dave Brewer said, I'm not a good notetaker. Lee Edmundson said, if the minutes were more compact, it would be easier. Joel Bornstein said, I could take minutes. Dave Brewer proposed: Tim Scully as chair, Lee Edmundson as vice-chair and Joel Bornstein as secretary. Joel Bornstein said, Trey Loy did a very good job as vice-chair. Dave Brewer agreed, very good. Tim Scully asked, is a treasurer needed? Should we open a bank account? He showed the committee a check Roy Trillia had sent, drawn in favor of the committee, stating that we can't cash it unless we open a bank account. Dave Brewer suggested, tell Roy to send cash. Trey Loy said that in the past we have passed the hat to pay part of the cost of copying and mailing minutes. Tim Scully explained that in the past, he used his company's equipment and materials to copy minutes and reports, envelopes and stamps for mailing. He kept track of the cost of these in the company's books and he also entered any donations from passing the hat or received by mail into the company's income records. Typically the annual costs exceeded donations by about $500 per year. The Little River Airport Pilots Association (LRAPA) was established as a 501(c)3 non-profit corporation, and it agreed to accept the deficit as a donation, effectively running the costs of the airport committee through LRAPA to make them tax deductible. Lee Edmundson said, it seems that the Board of Supervisors created this committee, there ought to be a mechanism for getting reimbursed. Susan Winding said, we were told to hold a bake sale. Joel Bornstein said, we could continue to use the pilot's group as an intermediary for accepting donations. Lee Edmundson said, has anyone gotten a legal opinion - we should run it past County Counsel. I would feel more comfortable if we ran it past County Counsel, especially when receiving money from the public. Let's explain the past and ask if it is ok to continue as before. Willow Trent said, I'm, ok with having a treasurer and am willing to volunteer. Grant Wheeler said, to the best of my knowledge, there is no real requirement to send out minutes. If someone wants them, they can pay to get copies. Otherwise 80 people will sign up and get minutes instead of attending meetings. Dave Brewer said, I'd rather err on the side of making our operations public. I suggest we periodically send out a questionaire with stamped, self-addressed envelopes asking if the recipient still wants to receive the printed minutes? Willow Trent said, it doesn't make sense to both donate time and money. Lee Edmundson said, I spend a lot out of pocket on theatricals, I collect receipts and take them to management and get reimbursed. Dave Brewer said, it is important for the information to be made available. Susan Winding said, if the minutes come down in size there will be less postage, most pilots are on email, it is mainly non-pilots who are not on email. Joel Bornstein said, there are County folks on the mailing list, any others should pay. Dave Brewer said, we should go back to the issue of officers and vote. Dave Brewer moved that Tim Scully be elected chair, Trey Loy as vice-chair, Joel Bornstein as secretary and Willow Trent as treasurer. Susan Winding seconded. The committee voted unanimously to approve this slate. collect issues for the committee to consider -------------------------------------------- Lee Edmundson asked, what about logging on the airport? Tim Scully said, several people have asked me to pass on their desire for more hangars. Lee Edmundson said, one pilot gave him information on an informal hangar fee survey he did. Tim Scully said, that was Charlie Meinershagen. Joel Bornstein said, additional hangars certainly are an issue. Dave Brewer said, they would be an added source of income for the airport, but some people will be concerned that they might increase traffic. Susan Winding said, what about the fuel tanks? Joel Bornstein said, the County is working on them. Lee Edmundson said, should we query Stan Townsend? Tim said, Les Proctor is working with the County to replace the last underground tank. The smaller tank has already been removed. Lee Edmundson said, we should get confirmation from Les that the issue is being worked on. Dave Brewer said, what about non-aviation use of airport land? Lee Edmundson asked, is the fire department on airport land? Do they pay rent? Trey Loy said, the fire department park was moved due to hangars. Keith Paulson spearheaded this. He also got the Hodges and Schutt report together. Keith was both fire chief and a pilot. Trey talked to Rick Ricca [The current fire chief] about this and was told that he is not interested in more discussion. Grant Wheeler asked, how far is the well from the gas tanks? Joel said, I think it is behind Coast Flyers. Willow Trent said, what about the master plan? Tim Scully said one of the committee's job may be updating the plan. I think it is supposed to be updated every 10 years. Trey Loy suggested, we should write to the Health, Welfare, Planning and Transportation committee for direction. Lee Edmundson agreed, that would be nice. We did the GPS, now what? Susan Winding said, has anyone raised the question of making the airport pay for itself? Tim Scully said, not recently. Remember the County took hundreds of thousands of dollars out of the airport with the timber harvest. Lee Edmundson said, we should ask for numbers. Trey Loy said, I'm not sure if it need to pay for itself. Dave Brewer said, we should ask the County what are the numbers, and what do you want them to be. Is the airport of enough value to the community at large to be worth what it costs? Trey Loy said, that's a lot of issues. Tim Scully said, there's also the question of erosion control. We once started to investigate grasses to plant in the infield. Trey Loy said, and what about the pavement? Where will the money come from for repaving? Tim Scully said that there seem to be two major alternatives for maintaining the pavement - a slurry seal which only lasts a few years and costs about $50,000 or an overlay of pavement which might cost $1,000,000 and last for many years. Typically airport paving is paid 90% by Federal grants (funded from the tax on avgas), 5% from State grants and 5% by the airport authority. Dave Brewer said, #1 we should find out the current financial situation and #2 someone has to give us policy direction regarding what they want it to look like. Lee Edmundson said, are we asking for the budget or income? Tim Scully said, I thing we want the budget, the airport income and the actual expenses. Dave Brewer said, there is someone in the County looking at the numbers and making decisions. Trey Loy said, I don't disagree with the County's bookkeeping. In the past there were long debates about how the County kept books. Lee Edmundson said, I'm not asking them to change their bookkeeping system. Susan Winding said, can we find out what the arrangement is for the fire department property? Trey Loy said, it is a done deal. Lee Edmundson said, it would be good to understand how it was decided. If someone decided unilaterally, it may not have been proper. If some other entity is making decisions about airport property, we need to understand what it is. Willow Trent said, in terms of priorities, we should write to the Health, Welfare, Planning and Transportation committee. Tim Scully said, yes, but we also fought for the right to choose issues on our own to investigate, so we should feel free to research some issues in addition to those assigned to us by the County, if we believe them to be important. Lee Edmundson said, getting a legal opinion regarding the money flow is top priority. Dave Brewer said, the man has some passion for this issue. Lee, would you like to write that letter? Tim Scully said, I'll write to DPW to request financial numbers and write to HWP&T to request fiscal policy direction. Joel Bornstein asked, is the financial data on the internet? Lee Edmundson said that he found only very basic data on the County web site. Susan Winding and Dave Brewer agreed to serve as a subcommittee to research the logging of aircraft operations. Lee Edmundson agreed to write to Peter Klein regarding finances. Tim Scully said he'd email a brief synopsis of the past handling of committee finances. Lee Edmundson said he'd write to DPW regarding the fire department use of airport land. Trey Loy said, it [fire department issue] seems to be decided. Willow Trent said, adjacent neighbors got letters regarding the change in the park, so it must have gone through official channels. We agreed that the next meeting of The Little River Airport Advisory Committee will be held on Friday May 15, 1998 at 9:00 am at the Woods Clubhouse. The agenda of the next Little River Airport Advisory Committee meeting shall be: Approve the minutes of the last meeting Communications (letters, FAXes, etc, sent/received since last meeting) The airport budget, actual income and expenses Logging of traffic at the airport Timber harvests at the airport Airport erosion control Additional hangars at the airport Fire department use of the airport Reports from subcommittees Public comment Report on finances (contributions received, expenses incurred) Agree on a date, time and place for the next meeting Agree on agenda for next meeting The meeting was adjourned at 6:00 pm, by unanimous vote. Members of the Little River Airport Advisory Committee ------------------------------------------------------ Joel Bornstein pilot, flight instructor lives near airport Dave Brewer pilot, lives near airport Lee Edmundson non-pilot Trey Loy non-pilot, lives near airport Tim Scully pilot, computer programmer, lives near airport commutes by air to Oakland weekly Willow Trent airport neighbor, non-pilot Susan Winding airport neighbor, non-pilot, business owner