The Little River Airport Advisory Committee (minutes 8/21/98 meeting) A meeting of The Little River Airport Advisory Committee was held at the Woods Clubhouse on Friday, August 21, 1998, at 9:00 am. The agenda had been posted at the Little River Airport and at the Little River Post Office. Present at the meeting were committee members: Tim Scully, Lee Edmundson, Trey Loy, Willow Trent, Susan Winding and Joel Bornstein. Also participating in the meeting were: Dick Ahrens, Dean Strupp, Naomi Jarvie, Bob Rodriguez and Diana Scully. The meeting was convened at 9:05 am. Tim Scully distributed copies of the communications sent and received since the last meeting. Tim suggested that we spend an hour on the Fireperson's Park and the Community's recreational use of the Little River Airport lands and that the remainder of our time be spent on other business. We agreed to that schedule. The minutes of the last meeting were accepted with one minor correction. Tim spoke briefly of the correspondence sent and received since our last meeting. It is appended to the end of these minutes: Some items were mentioned specifically: Appx A: Letter to Mendocino County Dept. of Transportation re: Our request they hold the new Fireperson's Park contract for our review. Appx B: Letter inviting Chief Ricca or his representative to attend this meeting. Communication with Bob Rodriguez on the Little River Airport Recreational use issue. We all agreed that the Albion-Little River Fire Department use of the park for its annual Barbeque is acceptable. The question is how many and what type of additional events will be permitted. Lee Edmundson spoke of the 3 acre clear-cut made for the creation of the park. Willow Trent showed us a number of photographs of the site. Susan Winding said they have planted some trees on the site. Dean Strupp, representing the Fire Department, (FD) replied that there is a rail fence around much of the area. There is some unfenced area. Willow complained that when the park was proposed there was to be only one annual event and now there is a possibility of 30 or more. The amplified music is too loud. She can hear it in her house with the windows closed. Lee said the letter to Ig Yakoushkin from Chief Ricca explained the reasons for the move. Tim Scully said the old site was too near aircraft, creating a hazard. Lee agreed that the new site is away from the aircraft. Tim said that the F.A.A. is primarily concerned with safety. Trey Loy said that he thinks that the taxiway could be closed once per year. Lee asked if we are considering recommending reversal of the move. We agreed that we are not. Willow asked how the single event was turned into thirty? Lee suggested that fund raising possibilities were a consideration. Trey thinks the procedure for the move was too casual and not properly disclosed. Dick Ahrens said the additional events were added by the Mendocino County Dept. of Transportation rather than the FD. Susan pointed out that the FD is in control of the park; they must have a representative present, they must carry the proper insurance and they must be notified for approval. Trey thought the airport a good gathering place for the neighborhood. It should become a multi-use area. Lee asked how many events have taken place other than the BBQ? The reply was that the area is still too new to have had many events. The concern is for the future. Lee asked Dean if the FD has received any requests? Dean said there are none. Lee asked if the FD could accept less than thirty as the number of other events? Dean stated that there are no plans to expand the area. A possible Flea Market fund raiser as well as plans for other fund raisers are in the works. He distributed a handout outlining Dan Sitts' plan (See Appendix Q) for the site from the fund raising point of view. Dan is the BBQ-Fundraising Chairperson for the FD. Lee asked if this is a five year plan, as outlined? Dean said it is all new to him. He agrees that the BBQ is essential; the additional fund raisers are questionable. There is actually a ten year plan. The liability issue is the primary limiting factor in anything that the FD might want to do. The movement of the BBQ site was the first priority. The Albion firehouse is in poor condition and needs to be replaced as the department's meeting place. The Little River firehouse is the likely meeting place for the future. The fun Day and the Octoberfest are new; they have not been spoken of before. They are not scheduled. Dean said he didn't think many people would want to use the location for their parties. He certainly wouldn't. Joel Bornstein asked if the addition of more trees, grass, etc. might not enhance the park so people will want to use it? Willow said that is a problem for her. Lee suggested that we limit the use of amplified music. Dean said that's OK for the future. The renewal will be for two years. Lee said that 30 events are too many. What's the maximum that the FD might anticipate? Dean said 10-15 is about all he'd expect. Willow complained that she must vacate her home on days when there is amplified music. Dean suggested that the speaker setup can be changed. Lee asked if the site is configured so that change is reasonable? Dean replied that the bandstand faces east, but it could be moved. Lee said that the sound would carry anyway. Would the FD accept five events as a maximum number? Dean thought five might be OK. The FD might have three events. If that didn't pose a problem there could be more. Lee asked if the bandstand can be moved? Willow asked Lee how he would feel if this were happening in his neighborhood? Lee replied that he has heard some logging near his house for the past two years. He just accepts it, although he doesn't like it. He knew what he was going to get when he bought land near the forest. Trey said he thinks the idea of community use of the Little River Airport is a good one. He mentioned the possibility of other noise mitigation efforts such as a fence to block some of the sound. Joel agreed with Trey's ideas. He said he had thought about the layout of the Little River Airport and can see that the site is the best one at the airport; any other might be too close to the runway or require expensive road building for access. Regarding the other items that the county had brought up, Dean said that they need fences for security, they will pay the rent that is due and that insurance is an obvious need. Lee reiterated that the FD is the leasing agent; not the County. Susan said that proof of insurance is required. Dean said the Fire District Board of Directors will approve all public use of the site. Willow said that she knew there was an airport when she purchased her property; not that there would be a party site. Lee Edmundson moved that we recommend a maximum of five events in addition to the BBQ, annually, with amplified music. Willow Trent added that it should be noted that this is a residential area. Dean Strupp said that this year the music was louder than in the past. That was unintentional. The FD is considerate of the neighbors' needs. The flea market is likely to happen. The FD wants to be good neighbors. Major uses of the area are unlikely. Joel Bornstein noted that the area is not open to public access at this time. Dean said that's because of the liability and the security issues. Tim Scully suggested that this is an opportune moment for us to hear from Bob Rodriguez. Bob said that the Recreation and Park District is compiling a master plan. It will show what's available now and what's projected for the future. There's not much now besides the Mendocino Community Center. Are there possibilities at Little River Airport? What would we like? Recommendations are requested. Bike trails? Picnic areas? Liability is again an issue. Joel Bornstein said that the airport has been used for years as a place for the young people to ride their dirt bikes. (motorcycles) They use the drainage ditch to jump high in the air, usually without helmets. Bob asked, "What can we do?" Joel replied that they might make a legal, safe, controllable park. Bob asked again, what would we like? No concerts, someone said. More use? Other suggestions? Willow Trent said that bike trails are OK. Not motorcycles. Bob said that a survey was made late last year. The community requested nature trails, water recreation facilities, bike trails, multi use space, a teen center, etc. What do you want? Bob's work in this arena is voluntary. He is not compensated. Lee Edmundson moved that we recommend that the number of amplified events be reduced from 30 to 5 and that a maximum of 200 people are permitted. Tim Scully asked about fencing? Lee suggested that we wait to see what happens. He feels that we should recommend that the contract permit fencing in whatever quantity necessary for security or noise control. The new contract should be for two years. Joel Bornstein asked why the County wanted to restrict fencing? Dean Strupp said it was because the original plan called for a six foot tall chain link fence. Lee said we should see what happens. Trey Loy said he wants to have a limit of five amplified events, but unamplified ones are OK. Lee said the intent is to encourage public usage of the site, but by reservation only. He wants to grandfather in the existing fence and have The Little River Airport Advisory Committee review any plans for additional fencing. Mendocino County Dept. of Transportation will notify us of any FD planned work toward the five year plan's goals. Dean repeated that the plan is in the idea stage only. Willow Trent wants it made clear that this is a residential area and that day use only is permitted. We reviewed Lee Edmundson's motion: Two year contract, six amplified events, other compatible daytime events to be scheduled, the existing fences will stand, possible new fences and Dan Sitts' letter will be passed on to the County. Trey Loy seconded the motion. (?) The vote was five in favor with Willow Trent opposed. Joel Bornstein suggested that we make note of the possible conflict of interest in Willow's vote. We agreed to do that. [When these minutes were reviewed at the 9/25/98 meeting, there was disagreement over whether the motion was for a total of 6 amplified events or 5 amplified events. We decided at that time to agree on a total of 5, including the annual barbeque.] Lee Edmundson said he wants to agendize the discussion of the recreational use of the Little River Airport. Bob Rodriguez requested that we send the results of that discussion to him at xxx, Little River. His home phone # is xxx-xxxx. Tim Scully brought up the correspondence pertaining to Sena Havasy's property, parcel 121-360-9, at the approach end of runway 29. He showed us the location on a map that he had produced earlier. He reported that the County has declined Ms Havasy's purchase proposal. If the Little River Airport were to get a precision approach with 1/2 mile minimum visibility required, the purchase of parcel 9 would be necessitated. Currently we don't need the property and cannot anticipate needing it in the future. Stan Townsend of the Mendocino County Dept. of Transportation requested input from Tim. Tim recommends eventual implementation of the land swaps recommended in the Airport Master Plan, but emphasized that they are not required for the non-precision GPS approach, or even for a precision approach, providing its visibility minimum is 3/4 mile or more. Trey Loy and Lee Edmundson don't want to see the money spent at this time. Tim Scully then presented the newly modified noise abatement poster. The procedure has been simplified at the request of Little River Airport Supervisor Les Proctor. Tim said that the new posters are being circulated. Trey Loy asked about the runway 11 runups. Tim Scully said we are still waiting for the Mendocino County Dept. of Transportation to install the promised signs. Susan Winding said she doesn't hear the runups; she hears the takeoffs that fly over her house and her pond. Joel Bornstein said he's working at getting all his students to make the left 10 degree turn at or before the end of the runway. Lee Edmundson asked that we request that the noise abatement signs be made larger; particularly at the takeoff end of runway 29. Lee Edmundson moved that the County be notified of our request for improved signage, as above. Trey Loy seconded. The motion passed unanimously. Tim Scully mentioned the letter from Supervisor Peterson re: the bylaws. Lee Edmundson said we should not create any bylaws. We're better off without them. Tim Scully brought up the agenda item to create subcommittees. He went through the agenda items: Flight Training Restrictions Firepersons' Park Done Cardlock fuel system Noise abatement Done Little River Airport budget Logging of airport traffic Timber harvest Done Erosion control Additional Hangars Non-aviation uses Susan Winding wanted confirmation that the subcommittees would make recommendations to the full committee. Lee Edmundson assured her that there would be two hearings. Willow Trent said that Supervisor Peterson wants us to work on the traffic study with a consultant. He wants use to get community opinion, also. Lee Edmundson asked what the Mendocino County Board of Supervisors' feeling is on traffic, water and septic? What can the road bear? Tim Scully said we have to avoid putting the cart before the horse, in these issues. We need to know what is compatible. Trey Loy said an outside consultant scares him. He wants us to do the work. He suggests a letter to Supervisor Peterson indicating that we want to be involved. Diana Scully said she thinks a consultant will cost more than $40,000. Lee said we should survey the neighbors. Joel Bornstein thinks surveying the neighbors is unnecessary; we already know what they will say to any development in their neighborhood. Tim Scully, Lee Edmundson and others had a short discussion of non-aviation uses of the airport. We agreed that our next meeting shall be held at the Woods on September 25, 1998 at 9:00 AM. The agenda for this meeting is: Approve the minutes of the last meeting Communications (letters, FAXes, etc, sent/received since last meeting) Should flight training activity (including touch and go landings) at Little River be restricted in some way? Possible cardlock fuel system at the airport, including environmental issues The airport budget, actual income and expenses Logging of traffic at the airport Airport erosion control Additional hangars at the airport Reports from subcommittees Public comment Report on finances (contributions received, expenses incurred) Agree on a date, time and place for the next meeting Agree on agenda for next meeting Lee Edmundson said we should create some subcommittees now. He suggested: Flight Training Subcommittee: Joel Bornstein, Trey Loy and Willow Trent. Non-Aviation use Subcommittee: Lee Edmundson, Susan Winding, Dave Brewer. Ground Cover Subcommittee: Tim Scully and Susan Winding. Hangar Subcommittee: Joel Bornstein and Willow Trent. The above Subcommittees were created and the members present were agreeable to serve. Dave Brewer was not here to comment on his availability. Since we had come to the end of our allotted meeting period, the meeting was adjourned at 11:05 am. Respectfully submitted, Joel Bornstein, Secretary ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Appendix A - 7/27/98 email from Tim to DOT ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From tim Mon Jul 27 06:24:40 1998 To: tim, townsend Subject: Fireman's Park The Little River Airport Advisory Committee met on 7/24/98 and discussed complaints from neighbors of the airport regarding the loud amplified music associated with the Volunteer Fire Department BBQ. The committee notes that the Fire Department lease for the park is up for renewal. We request that the renewal be deferred until after our next meeting on August 21. We are inviting the Fire Department to our August 21 meeting so we can discuss concerns from neighbors regarding the lease provisions which allow up to 30 additional events involving up to 200 people to take place at Fireman's Park. All committee members agreed that we are very grateful for the services of the Fire Department. The neighbors agreed that they can tolerate one very noisy event for the benefit of our Fire Department. But the possibility of many more such events, possibly one every weekend April to October, is chilling. The new location of Fireman's Park is much closer to neighboring houses than the previous location, and there are few trees to block noise transmission. Respectfully Yours, Tim Scully, Ph.D. chair, Airport Advisory Committee ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Appendix B - 7/28/98 letter from Tim to Rick Ricca ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tim Scully 7/28/98 Rick Ricca Chief, Albion-Little River VFD Dear Rick: I'm writing to you on behalf of the Little River Airport Advisory Committee, which last met on Friday July 24. The committee asked me to invite you or your chosen representative to the committee's next meeting, 9:00am August 21 at the Lodge at The Woods on airport road. We have been discussing concerns of the airport's neighbors about the loud amplified music associated from the new Fireman's Park location. The current lease agreement for the Park allows for the possibility of up to 30 events per year, each involving up to 200 people. I think there is general agreement that the Fire Department's fine work is warmly appreciated, and that one loud party each year in benefit of the Fire Department is ok. But the committee has been asked to consider whether a restriction on the use of amplified music at other times should be made part of the renewed lease. I recently was contacted by Bob Rodriguez of the Park and Rec district, asking about recreational resources available in the airport area. This might be a source of requests for additional events at the park. The committee would appreciate it if you or a Fire Department representative could meet with us to talk over how to mitigate the imapct of events at the new Fireman's Park. The new location is much closer to a cluster of neighbor's houses, and there are few trees to provide a sound barrier. Thank you again for the outstanding work of the Fire Department. Yours, Tim Scully, Ph.D. chair, Little River AAC --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Appendix C - July 31 letter from DOT to Rick Ricca --------------------------------------------------------------------------- E. C. CALVERT DIRECTOR OF TRANSPORTATION DIVISIONS Administration & Business Airports COUNTY OF MENDOCINO Engineering and Technical Assistance DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION Land Improvement Transportation/Roads UKIAH, CALIFORNIA 95482 (707) 463-4363 FAX (707) 463-5474 July 31, 1998 Albion-Little River Volunteer Fire Department P. 0. Box 101 Albion, CA 95410 Attn: Rick Ricca, Chief RE: LITTLE RIVER AIRPORT LAND LEASE AGREEMENT FIREMEN'S PICNIC AND RECREATIONAL AREA Dear Chief Ricca: As you know, the Land Lease Agreement between the County of Mendocino and the Albion-Little River Fire District expires on 1 September 1998. The Little River Airport Advisory Committee has requested that the renewal be deferred until after their meeting of 21 August 1998, to which they have invited your organization to discuss concerns from neighbors about noise from events on the property that you tease from the County. We will defer renewal until after this meeting. In reviewing the Land Lease Agreement, the following was noted: I . Section 4. - "Lessee shall not place any fence around the leased site." A fence has been erected around the picnic and barbecue area. 2. Section 8. - "Lessee shall pay on or before the 15th day of September of each year this lease is in effect a yearly rental rate of $ 1.00." The only payment received was on 13 August 1993. 3 . Section 9.b. and 9.c. - Comprehensive public liability insurance. We have not received a Certificate of Insurance or any other proof of insurance. It also has been noted that there are old and unusable picnic tables and other items that have been left in the old picnic and barbecue area. This area must be cleaned up. Please address the above items when you meet with the Little River Airport Advisory Committee on 21 August 1998 and this department will look for recommendations from the Committee relating to these items and renewal of the Land Lease Agreement. Yours truly, E. C. CALVERT, Director of Transportation BY: CHARLES A. BOYER Business Services Manager CAB/vj cc: Little River Airport Advisory Committee Eugene Calvert, Director of Transportation Stanley Townsend, Deputy Director of Transportation File 24-1 0 E:\SharedWP\DOC\albion.doc ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Appendix D - 8/10/98 letter from Willow Trent ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Patricia J. (Willow) Trent August 10, 1998 Dear Tim: In the interest of efficiency and because I anticipate that the August 21, 1998 meeting of the Airport Advisory Committee will be a busy one, I wanted to get some background information regarding the fireman's park issue to you. I believe that this is the meeting that Mr. Ricca, Chief of the Albion/Little River Volunteer Fire Department has been invited to attend. I have enclosed the current copy of the Land Lease Agreement between the LR-Albion Fire Department and the Board of Supervisors which was originally appended to the May 15, 1998 Airport Advisory Committee meeting minutes. The Lease Agreement expires September 1, 1998. I have also included three different pieces of correspondence. The first is a letter to airport neighbors (Mary and Ig Yakouskin), regarding bar be que site relocation sent by Mr. Ricca. The second is a letter to Mr. Ricca from Jason Trent. (This letter was composed on an old-fashioned typewriter at the beginning of 1993, please excuse the typos). I should mention that Mr. Ricca never responded in any form to this letter. The third piece of correspondence is a letter to Norman de Vall from Jason Trent. I am sending this packet to each of the other airport advisory committee members. Thanks. See you at the meeting. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Appendix E - undated letter from Rick Ricca to Ig and Mary Yakoushkin ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ALBION-LITTLE RIVER FIRE DISTRICT Rick Ricca, Chief to:Ig and Mary Yakoushkin re: Bar be que site relocation Dear Iq and Mary, For many years, we have all enjoyed the fund raising sirloin bar be que produced by the Albion-Little River firemen. In these days of shrinking state and county funding, this fundraiser has become more and more important to the survival of this important service to our community. The county of Mendocino has been kind enough to allow us to use space adjacent to hangars, near the airstrip, for this function. If you have attended this function in years past, you know that the bar be que area can be both crowded and dusty, with borderline unsafe conditions resulting from the close proximity of vehicle traffic to the ticket area. We have also discovered that because of the available space, we are operating at maximum capacity with respect to the number of dinners served, meaning that it would be very difficult to ever increase the number of dinners served, and in so doing, increase the ever more important income derived from this function. At this time, we are currently working on a lease arrangement with the county, for approximately three acres adjacent to our firehouse at the intersection of Airport Rd and the Airport access road. Our intended use would be relocation of the bar be que site for this once a year fundraiser. I will be appearing before the County Board of Supervisors on January 19, with two members of my Board of directors, to propose this arrangement, and would like to be able to say that we have been given your blessing on this project, as this property borders in the vicinity of yours. If you have any questions or concerns please contact me as soon as possible so I can attempt to mitigate them. If you are able to give us your blessing, please contact me by letter or by phone, and let me know. In either case, I look forward to hearing from you. Thanks, Rick ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Appendix F - 1/12/93 letter from Dr. Jason Trent to Rick Ricca ------------------------------------------------------------------------- JASON K. T. TRENT, M.D. 12 January 1993 Mr. Rick Rica Chief Albion-Little River Fire District Dear Mr. Rica, My wife and I reside at xxxx Airport Road, a very short distance from the Fire Satation. We saw the letter that-- you sent to the immediate neighbours of the Fire Station. You propose a "clear cutting of three acres" for the purposes of creating barbeque pits and parking facilities for the Annual Fund Raising Barbeque. As much as I wish to have our house saved from fire by your company's intervention, should that emergency occur, I cannot agree with your proposal. - Why did the County displace you now? - Why do you need to cut down three acres of trees to provide a few barbecue pits for a one time annual event? - Have you thought about the "dust clouds" your clear cutting will allow to be created around our homes? - The vegetation provides noise barriers, wind protection and dust barriers. All these will be wiped out by your proposed action. - Parking has never been a problem before. How will this nonexistent problem be "solved" by the creation of vacant land? - If you need more customers for more funds - start the event earlier in the day. - The intrusion of people into our peaceful lives will be promoted by your proposed action. The clear cutting of three acres of trees will not benefit the community in any way and I see only negative impacts to all! Sincerely yours, Jason K. T. Trent, M.D. cc Norman de Vall County Supervisor ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Appendix G - 1/12/93 letter from Dr. Jason Trent to Norman deVall ------------------------------------------------------------------------- JASON K. T. TRENT, M.D. 12 January 1993 Norman de Vall Dear Norman, I am requesting your support in voting against the proposed clear cutting of three acres of land adjacent to the Fire Station of the Albion-Little River Fire District on January 19. Enclosed is a letter I sent to Mr. Rick Rica, the Chief. It indicates a few of the reasons why I am against the clear cutting. I am familiar with the geology of the land and can see only negative things resulting from the proposed action. The granting of premission to clear cut will result in the destruction of property, loss in real estate value and an increase in local raise and dust. You may call me "unnecessarily suspicious", but I don't think that we are being given the true motives of either the Fire Department or the County in this proposal. Sincerely yours, Jason K. T. Trent, M.D. encl. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Appendix H - August 5 memo to Charles Peterson from DOT --------------------------------------------------------------------------- MENDOCINO COUNTY TRANSPORTATION TO: Charles Peterson DATE: 5 August 1998 District 5 Supervisor FROM: Stanley Townsend, Deputy Director Department of Transportation SUBJECT: LITTLE RIVER AIRPORT GPS APPROACH IMPACT ON COUNTY TIMBER RESOURCES At the Board meeting on 4 August 1998, the various airport imaginary surfaces (as defined by the Federal Aviation Administration) were discussed. You asked that we look into the potential impact of the proposed GPS approach on those surfaces as relates to the timber resources on the Little River Airport property. Per Federal Aviation Regulations Part 77.25, the primary surface is at runway-level and centered on the runway. For a nonprecision instrument approach (such as the proposed GPS approach) the width of the primary surface is 500 feet. From the outer edge of the primary surface, the transitional surface extends out and up at a 7:1 slope. It is this transitional surface that would potentially impact the height of trees on the timber production areas of the airport. The airport zoning map for Little River Airport adopted pursuant to County Code Chapter 20.112 is based on the same 500 foot wide horizontal and 7:1 sloping surfaces. These zoning height restriction surfaces will not require revision if a GPS approach is implemented. The GPS approach will, therefore, have no impact on timber resources on the Airport property. If you have any additional questions regarding this, contact me at your convenience. CC: Little River Airport Advisory Committee File 24-19 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Appendix I - August 4 letter from DOT to Board of Supervisors --------------------------------------------------------------------------- E. C. CALVERT DIRECTOR OF TRANSPORTATION DIVISIONS Administration & Business Airports COUNTY OF MENDOCINO Engineering and Technical Assistance DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION Land Improvement Transportation/Roads UKIAH, CALIFORNIA 95482 (707) 463-4363 FAX (707) 463-5474 4 August 1998 Mendocino County Board of Supervisors 501 Low Gap Road Ukiah, CA 95482 RE: STATUS REPORT-AIRPORT CLEAR ZONES FOR LITTLE RIVER AIRPORT (LITTLE RIVER AREA) Honorable Board Members: Recently there has been some attention directed towards the (possible) need for acquiring additional clear zones (runway protection zones) for the Little River Airport. In particular, Ms. Sena Spear Havasy, a property owner at the south end of the airport, sent a letter to the Board on 6 May 1998. In her letter, Ms. Havasy requested that the County buy an 8-acre parcel from her for clear zone purposes. The Department of Transportation has been requested to prepare a report on airport clear zones, including status on actions that might heighten the need for acquiring additional clear zone(s) and possible funding sources for such acquisition. The Department is hereby submitting an interim report on the clear zone requirements that would impact the Havasy property. The intent is to provide timely information for the Board's consideration prior to the start of deliberations on the FY 1998/99 Final Budget. A follow-on report concerning the overall status of both County airports, including the need for future property transactions (if any) will be presented to the Board in the near future. In her 19 May 1998 letter, Ms. Havasy points out that the Master Plan for Little River Airport (February 1990) calls for acquisition of sufficient property to protect the clear zone associated with a precision approach to Runway 29 (i.e., airplanes landing to the northwest). However, the Master Plan further states (page 83) that purchase of the property, including a residence, required for protection of the clear zone for a precision approach to Runway 29 "only becomes necessary upon the establishment of a precision approach to Runway 29." Also, "as this event is many years in the future, there is no urgency to the acquisition of this residence." The County has recently (1 May 1998) requested that the Federal Aviation Administration establish GPS Instrument Approach Procedures for Runway 29 (and for Runway 11 ... airplanes landing to the southeast) at Little River Airport. However, such approach procedures (if established) will involve a non-precision approach and would not trigger the Master Plan land acquisition recommendation. Presently, there are no plans to establish a precision instrument approach at Little River Airport. Any future discussion/implementation of a precision instrument approach-if it were initiated-would naturally include community involvement and diligent consideration of concerns identified by the public, aviation community, business community and residents in the vicinity of the airport. Enclosure (1) provides a copy of Ms. Havasy's letter for reference and Enclosure (2) is a copy of Department of Transportation letter of 19 May 1998, which answered Ms. Havasy's letter. We will, of course, respond to any questions that the Board may have concerning this interim report. Respectfully submitted, E. C. CALVERT Director of Transportation BY: R. V. PARKER Assistant Director ECC/RVP/vj cc: BOS Corres. Little River Airport Advisory Committee Les Proctor, Airport Supervisor DOT File 24-23 DOT File 24-19 E:\SharedWP\BOARD\LRAIRPORT.doc --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Appendix J - May 6, 1998 letter from Sena Havasy to BOS --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sena Havasy May 6, 1998 Mendocino County Board of Supervisors 501 Low Gap Road, Room 1070 Ukiah, CA 95482 Re: Purchase of Parcel A P 121/360/09 (see attached) Dear Supervisor Campbell: I own eight acres of land in Little River which jut into the Little River Airport on three sides. On the Airport Master Plan prepared by Hodges and Shutt in February 1990, (see attached), it is referred to: 'It is recommended that sufficient property be acquired to protect the clear zones associated with a precision approach to Runway 29. Ultimately, this program will require the acquisition of one residence located adjacent to, (actually projecting into), the southeast edge of the airport Purchase of this property becomes necessary upon the establishment of precision, (instrument), approach to Runway 29.' It is my understanding that that time has now arrived and that such instrument landings on Runway 29 are currently being planned. It is the last remnant of an 80 acre parcel absorbed into the airport over many years starting in 1944. ft has been adversely affected over the years by increased air traffic, topping of my trees, boundary problems, diversion of stream to flood my wood lot, etc. I paid $65,000. for it $20,000. for an option to buy in 1980, and the balance of $45,000. on 25 Feb. 1986. Fair market value in 1992 was $125,000. 1 respectfully urge the county to buy it at a reasonable price to be agreed upon. Sincerely, Sena Spear Havasy CC: Supervisors Michael Dellbar Charles Peterson John Pinches Richard Schoemaker: Joyce Beard, Clerk of the Board --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Appendix K - 19 may, 1998 letter from DOT to Sena Havasy --------------------------------------------------------------------------- E. C. CALVERT DIRECTOR OF TRANSPORTATION DIVISIONS Administration & Business Airports COUNTY OF MENDOCINO Engineering and Technical Assistance DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION Land Improvement Transportation/Roads UKIAH, CALIFORNIA 95482 (707) 463-4363 FAX (707) 463-5474 19 May 1998 Sena Spear Havasy RE: APN 121-360-09 Dear Ms. Havasy: Your 6 May 1998 letter to the Board of Supervisors was forwarded to the Department of Transportation. Your letter proposes that the County purchase the above referenced parcel located adjacent to the Little River Airport. Attached to your letter were copies from a Draft version of the Little River Airport Master Plan. The wording relating to land acquisition in the adopted version of this Plan is essentially the same: In the interest of preserving the safety and utility of the Little River Airport, it is recommended that sufficient property be acquired to protect the clear zones associated with a precision approach to Runway 29 and a nonprecision approach to Runway 11. Specifically, it is recommended that the properties shown in Figure 14 be acquired in fee simple. Where possible, existing property lines are followed. Ultimately, this program will require the acquisition of one residence - located adjacent to the southeast edge of the airport. However, purchase of this property only becomes necessary upon the establishment of a precision approach to Runway 29. As this event is many years in the future, there is no urgency to the acquisition of this residence. The County has requested that the Federal Aviation Administration establish GPS Instrument Approach Procedures for Runways 29 and 11 at Little River Airport. Note that these approach procedures (if established) will constitute a non-precision approach, and thus would not trigger the Master Plan land acquisition recommendation. There are currently no plans to establish a precision instrument approach at the Airport. Any future implementation of a precision instrument approach will not occur without a community involvement process. Your letter indicates that your parcel "... has been adversely affected over the years by increased air traffic, topping of my trees, boundary problems, diversion of stream to flood my wood lot, etc." Air traffic is to be expected in the vicinity of an airport, and the Little River Airport pre-dates your ownership of the parcel in question. Being in the vicinity of the Airport, your parcel is subject to the height restrictions (Chapter 20.112 of the County Zoning Code), which also pre-date your ownership. Several years ago the County performed some tree topping on this parcel (with property owner permission) to comply with the Zoning Code and FAA regulations. We have no knowledge of the boundary problems or stream diversion of which you speak, or how either would relate to operations at the Little River Airport. To summarize, the Department of Transportation currently has no plans to expand operations at the Little River Airport in any manner, which would necessitate the acquisition of the parcel in question. No funds are budgeted for such property acquisition. If you have any further questions, please contact me at your convenience. Sincerely, E.C. Calvert, Director of Transportation By:Stanley Townsend Deputy Director cc: Board of Supervisors Joyce Beard, Clerk of the Board Michael Scannell CAO File 24-2A \\DPW-Nt\PUBDATA\SharedWP\SLT\Word\Airport\LR\havasy.ltr doc --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Appendix L - BOS Agenda summary #10A --------------------------------------------------------------------------- BOARD AGENDA # 10A MENDOCINO COUNTY BOARD OF SUPERVISORS AGENDA SUMMARY TO: BOARD OF SUPERVISORS DATE SUBMITTED: 30 July 1998 FROM: DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION 1. AGENDA DATE 4 August 1998 Recommend Consent Calendar (Agenda Deadline: Noon Friday 11 days prior to meeting) TIME FRAME: Routine DATE REQUIRED: Not Applicable Estimated Time for Item Not Applicable AGENDA TITLE: Status Report - Airport Clear Zones for Little River Airport (Little River Area) CAO RECOMMENDATION: none PREVIOUS RELEVANT BOARD ACTIONS ON THIS SPECIFIC ITEM: None 11. BRIEF SUMMARY: (See attached sheet) ALTERNATIVES: An alternative (though not recommended) would be to include acquisition of Parcel 121-360-09 in the FY - 1998/99 Final Budget. WILL PROPOSAL REQUIRE ADDITIONAL PERSONNEL? NO RECOMMENDED ACTION/MOTION: Board review and consider Department of Transportation's status report dated 4 August 1998. RESOURCE PERSON: E.C. CALVERT TO BE PRESENT II. Brief Summary: Some attention has recently been directed towards the (possible) need for acquiring additional clear zone(s) for Little River Airport. In particular, Ms. Sena Spear Havasy, a property owner at the south end of the airport, sent a letter on 6 May 1998 requesting that the County purchase an 8-acre parcel that she owns-for clear zone purposes. The Department of Transportation has been requested to prepare a report on airport clear zones, including status on actions that might heighten the need for acquiring additional clear zone(s) and possible funding sources for such acquisition. Transportation letter of 4 August 1998 provides an interim status report on the clear zone that impacts the Havasy parcel. The intent is to provide timely information for the Board's consideration prior to the start of deliberations on the FY 1998/99 Final Budget. (A follow-on report concerning the status of both County airports will be presented in the near future.) The interim. status report concludes that there is no immediate need to acquire additional clear zone at Little River Airport. Such additional clear zone would be required only upon the establishment of a precision instrument approach (to Runway 29) and there presently are no plans to establish a precision approach at the airport. E:\SharedWP\BOARD\agenLRAIR.doc -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Appendix M - - 8/5/98 email from DOT to Tim -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From townsend Wed Aug 5 13:08:19 1998 To: Tim Scully Les Proctor Subject: RPZ I've been doing a little research on runway protection zones and whether they will be impacted by implementation of a GPS approach. My understanding is that the primary surface for runway 29 is currently 250' wide (FAR Part 77.25: utility runway, visual approach). As a GPS approach is considered a non-precision instrument approach, my understanding is that our primary surface will need to expand to 500' wide with the implementation. This will not affect our airport hight restriction zoning, as the adopted maps are already based on a 500' wide surface. Initially I thought that the inner width of the RPZ was the same as the width of the primary surface. Now that I have looked at FAA AC 150/5300-13, I find that is not the case. The dimensions of the RPZ are based on approach visibility minimums and the aircraft served. For approach visibility minimums not lower than one mile, if the facility is to serve small aircraft exclusively the inner width is 250 feet. For aircraft approach categories A & B the inner width is 500 feet. For aircraft approach categories C & D the inner width is also 500 feet (but the zone is longer). If you have internet connection with Adobe Acrobat Reader (PDF) capabilities, you can get this AC @ http://www.faa.gov/arp/5300-13.pdf The airport boundary south of the end of RWY 29 is along the RPZ line based on a 250' inner width. If this inner width expands, it would push our RPZ onto private property. My current understanding is that the GPS approach would not affect the RPZ width. I have not found information on the aircraft approach categories to see if that would affect the RPZ. I guess thais has degraded into near-miscellaneous ramblings. Thought I would bounce it off you airport types to see if you can confirm or deny or point me. Thanks. -- townsend (Stanley Townsend) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Appendix N - 8/9/98 email from Tim to DOT ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From tim Sun Aug 9 14:32:57 1998 To: aerodynx, tim, townsend Subject: Re: RPZ I apologize for being slow to give you an organized response to your email of the 5th. I was able to get my copy of AC 150/5300-13 back from Les yesterday, and have spent some time studying it. Also, I have now received copies of correspondence regarding Ms. Havasy's land. I now see that the "Clear Zone" and "Runway Protection Zone" (RPZ) are the same, and that the "Runway Safety Area" (RSA) is something else again. The RPZ is intended to protect people and property on the ground, while the RSA is intended to limit the risk to aircraft in the event of an undershoot, overshoot or excursion from the runway. It appears from Table 2-4 that the Inner Width of the RPZ for Little River probably should be 500', for either a visual or an instrument approach, since Little River serves both Class A and B aircraft. I have overlaid the Airport Layout Plan (ALP) over parcel maps from the County cartographer. Ms. Havasy's parcel, according to my overlaid maps, is overlapping the 1000 foot wide RPZ which the ALP proposes for a precision approach, but is entirely outside the 500 foot RPZ which applies to visual and non-precision approaches. It appears that A/P 121-360-10 and A/P 121-360-22 are the only parcels overlapping the 500 foot with RPZ for Runway 29. And A/P 121-360-10 also appears to overlap the 250 foot RPZ. In the case of Runway 11, it appears that A/P 121-33-7 overlaps both the 250 and 500 foot RPZs. I am mailing you a color plot of the overlaid maps. As you can see, they do not overlay perfectly, but I don't think the errors are large enough to affect the analysis presented above. If this is deemed very important, it may be helpful to get the County Cartographer's opinion. Paragraph 212 a.2 and 212 b from AC 150/5300-13, seem to cover the existing situation: (a) While it is desirable to clear all objects from the RPZ, some uses are permitted, provided they do not attract wildlife, are outside of the Runway OFA, and do not interfere with navigational aids. Golf courses (but not club houses) and agricultural operations (other than forestry or livestock farms) are expressly permitted under this proviso. Automobile parking facilities, although discouraged, may be permitted, provided the parking facilities and any associated appurtenances, in addition to meeting alI of the preceding conditions, are located outside of the object free area extension (as depicted in figure 2-3). (b) Land uses prohibited from the RPZ are: residences and places of public assembly. (Churches, schools, hospitals, office buildings, shopping centers, and other uses with similar concentrations of persons typify places of public assembly.) b. Recommendations. Where it is determined to be impracticable for the airport owner to acquire and plan the land uses within the entire RPZ, the RPZ land use standards have recommendation status for that portion of the RPZ not controlled by the airport owner. With respect the the RSA, it appears to me that aircraft using Little River Airport fall into Design Groups I and II, which implies an RSA width of 150 feet, if I am reading Table 3-1 correctly. The RSA is much smaller than the RPZ, and is entirely on airport land, as far as I can tell. As I have said before, although I believe that it is DESIRABLE to implement the land swaps suggested in the Airport Master Plan, to secure all present and proposed RPZ's in fee simple, it is not necessary for the present non-precision GPS approach, in my opinion. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Appendix O - 8/17/98 letter from Charles Peterson to LRAAC ------------------------------------------------------------------------- CHARLES PETERSON Telephone: Supervisor Office: (707)-4221 Fifth District Office Fax: (707) 463:4245 Home: (707) 743-2767 Voice Mail: Inland: (707) 463-6646 Coast: (707) 882-8646 COUNTY OF MENDOCINO BOARD OF SUPERVISORS 501 LOW GAP ROAD, ROOM 1090 UKIAH, CALIFORNIA 95482 August 17, 1998 Tim Scully, Chair Little River Airport Advisory Committee Dear Tim, I am responding to your letter of 7/30/98 as an individual Supervisor with my personal responses. 1. I believe that alternates can be appointed only by the Board of Supervisors. I do not know if alternates would serve to replace specific seats on the Committee, or if they would serve to replace specific categories. Check the bylaws. If the Committee wishes to recommend names for appointments, let me know. 2. It seems to me that the Committee is on course. I noticed in some recent minutes that the Committee was wondering what it's role was relative to the use of herbicides at the airport. Any recommendations that the Committee would like to make to the Board of Supervisors on this issue would be appreciated. The Committee should seek to report any significant policy matter to the Board of Supervisors after communicating with the Department of Transportation, and receiving their agreement that the matter should be brought to the Board. The Department can decide if it should come before the Health, Welfare, Planning and Transportation Committee. 3. Regarding potential conflicts of interest and voting, appearances are everything. If a Committee member has potential financial conflicts, it would be best for them to put their opinion in writing, submit it to the Committee, and refrain from the formal discussion of that matter. This is mostly to protect the interest of the conflicting member, since the decision is only advisory. Often, when an individual with a financial conflict does not recuse themselves, it can make it more difficult for the remaining members to support that persons position, especially if there are members of the general public present. Also, if members recuse themselves when there is a financial conflict, it makes the subsequent advisory vote of more value to the Board of Supervisors. I would also note that members should refrain from abstaining (as opposed to recusing themselves) unless they were not present for the discussion on an item. Sometimes deciding which way to vote on a given issue can be difficult, at best. In the end, it is best to vote. 4. 1 will ask County Counsel if bylaws need to be approved by the Board of Supervisors. I believe that they must. If I am wrong, I will let you know. Let the Department of Transportation decide if they must come before a Board committee first. Regarding your other questions: There is substantially less need for airport expenses to be covered by income than there was three years ago. The County is in much better financial shape now, but the future depends upon the economy and actions taken by the State which are out of our control. It will be wise, over time, to improve the financial health of the airport. Your Committee will play an important role in defining appropriate development that can meet this need. I underscore the word "appropriate". Income from timber harvesting on County property at the airport was added as General Fund revenue to the 96/7 County budget, and was expended as such in that budget year. It was not considered to be income derived from airport operations, rather it was considered income to benefit all County residents from County property. You can assume that future harvests will be viewed in the same light, and I support that position. In the meantime, you should know that the Board of Supervisors budgeted $90-100,000 for improvements at Little River Airport during this (97/8) budget year. Most of this money will be for runway maintenance. I believe that much of this money is an accumulation of the $10,000 annual federal contributions, but some of it is in fact County General Funds. The County will support airport maintenance and operations when it can. Please remember that everything said here is the opinion of one Supervisor only. And for that matter I might have gotten some of it wrong. Please check with your contact at the Department of Transportation for confirmation before going to the bank with anything. Sincerely, Charles Peterson cc: Patricia Campbell Gene Calvert Peter Klein --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Appendix P: Albion-Little River fire dept lease for airport picnic area ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- COUNTY OF MENDOCINO LAND LEASE AGREEMENT This Lease Agreement states the terms and conditions for use of approximately 3 acres of County owned airport property at Little River Airport as agreed to between the County of Mendocino, hereafter referred to as "Lessor," and the Albion Little River Fire District, hereafter referred to as "Lessee." 1. The term of this Lease shall be for 5 years, commencing on September 2, 1993 and terminating on September 1, 1998. This Lease may thereafter be extended at the sole discretion of Lessor for Incremental periods of 2 years. 2. The approximately 3-acre parcel to be leased by Lessee under the terms and conditions of this Agreement is located adjacent to Lessee's firehouse along the easterly side of the airport access road in an area identified for possible nonaviation use in the Little River Airport Master Plan Report, and is more particularly described in the diagram attached hereto and marked Exhibit A. 3. This leased site shall be designated as a "Picnic And Recreational Area" and shall be used principally for Lessee's annual barbecue festivity, which is essentially a fund-raiser activity of Lessee. 4. Lessee may engage at its own cost and expense in clearing activities to develop and make ready the leased site as a picnic and recreation area, including a barbecue site, but no permanent facilities of any kind shall be erected or constructed. Lessee shall not place any fence around the leased site. 5. Lessee's use of the leased site shall be nonexclusive, but Lessee shall have priority of use to hold its annual fundraising barbecue festivity. Lessee may allow the occasional use of the leased site by other groups of persons for picnic and recreational use as follows: a. The occasional use by groups of less than 12 persons monitored and supervised by Lessee. b. The occasional use by groups of 12 or more persons but less than 200 persons monitored and supervised by Lessee shall be scheduled at least 15 days in advance, and Lessee shall give 10 days written notice to Lessor's Director of Public Works. c. Lessee shall not allow use of the leased site by groups of 200 persons or more. d. Lessee shall not allow the use of the leased site in excess of 30 days each year for all such activities combined, e. Use of the leased site for the foregoing activities shall be without fee or charge, except that Lessee may request donations to cover costs of clean-up and garbage, waste disposal. 6. Except as provided in paragraph 5 above, Lessee shall not assign the use of the site leased under this Agreement to any other individual or organization without the prior written approval of Lessor's Director of Public Works. Any such assignment without this written approval shall be void. 7. Any activity authorized under this Lease shall not interfere with any airport activity conducted at the Little River Airport. 8. Lessee shall pay on or before the 15th day of September of each year this Lease is in effect a yearly rental rate of $1.00. 9. a. Lessee agrees to defend, indemnify and save harmless Lessor against any and all claims, suits, damages and expenses, of anyone resulting from, arising out of or in connection with use of the leased site by Lessee or its officers, agents, employees, invitees or guests, or by any group of persons allowed by Lessee to use the leased site as described in paragraph 5 above. b. Lessee further agrees to obtain and keep in full force and effect throughout this Lease, a policy or polices of comprehensive public liability insurance, including the extension endorsement, insuring Lessee and Lessor and all of their respective agents and employees, against all claims out of or in connection with the conduct of Lessee during use of the leased site. Such policy or policies shall provide for a minimum coverage limit of $1,000,000.00 combined bodily injury and property damage liability, or its equivalent, and shall further provide that such policy is subject to cancellation only upon 30 days prior written notice delivered to Lessor's Director of Public Works. c. Lessee shall furnish to Lessor at least 10 days prior to occupancy a certificate evidencing that such insurance has been procured and is in full force and effect, together with a copy of an endorsement confirming coverage of Lessor as an additional insured. d. Lessee agrees Lessor assumes no liability whatsoever for any death, injury or loss resulting from, arising out of or connected with the activities of Lessee, its officers, trustees, employees, or anyone in or about the leased site except for any loss, injury or death directly resulting from the negligent or intentional act and/or negligent or intentional omissions of Lessor. 10. If any provision or condition agreed to in this Lease is breached by Lessee, then it shall be lawful for Lessor to serve notice of termination and thereupon this Lease shall terminate. Lessee agrees to vacate the leased site upon written notification by Lessor of any such breach and request to vacate. If the leased site is not vacated upon written notification by Lessor of breach of contract, or upon expiration or other termination of this Lease, Lessee acknowledges the right of Lessor to remove any and all property of Lessee from the leased site referred to in this Agreement. 11. In the event either party is required to commence an action in a court of law to enforce its rights under this Agreement, the prevailing party shall be entitled to reasonable attorneys fees, 12. Lessee shall provide for security and protection of the public using the leased site under this Agreement. 13. Lessee shall at all times keep the leased site in good order and condition and will, at the expiration or other termination of this Lease, surrender and deliver up the same in like good order and condition, with ordinary wear and tear and such damages by the elements, fire and other casualty which are not due to the negligence of the Lessee excepted. 14. No signs shall be displayed within the leased site without the express written approval of Lessor. 15. Lessor's Director of Public Works shall be the sole agent of Lessor authorized to do business with Lessee on behalf of Lessor under the terms of this Agreement. Lessee acknowledges that all notices required to be given by Lessee to Lessor or all approvals to be obtained by Lessee from Lessor under the terms of this Agreement shall be given to or obtained from Lessor's Director of Public Works. 16. This writing contains the complete and entire understanding of the parties to this Agreement. No representation was made or relied upon by either party other than those expressly set forth herein. No agent, employee or other representative of either party is empowered to alter any of the terms hereof, unless the same is in writing and signed by the parties hereto. The parties hereto affix their signatures; on the day and year so indicated. ALBION-LITTLE RIVER FIRE DISTRICT by Rick Ricca, Chief Dated: August 9, 1993 COUNTY OF MENDOCINO by James Eddie, Chair, Board of Supervisors Dated: 24 August 1993 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Appendix Q: 8/18/98 letter from Dan Sitts to the committee ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 08/18/98 Letter to the Airport Advisory Committee From Dan Sitts, BBQ Chairperson for Albion-Little River Fire Department ALRFD The ALRFD has worked hard to relocate the BBQ site. It's taken 4 years to get this far and the site is still not complete. Here are some considerations and opinions from me as I can't make this meeting due to my job. If you would consider having an early evening meeting or if you wish to call me that would be fine, I desire to build a relationship of trust and honesty with the Airport committee and all concerned neighbors. As BBQ chairperson my goal is to have a completed site that would facilitate fund-raisers that are easy, safe and fun for the volunteers and helpers to put on. We are getting closer to that goal by locating closer to the fire house, replacing heavy wood stoves with light weight gas stoves, building a freezer unit at the site, etc. This year's BBQ was as a moment of pride for the volunteers as their hard work was paid off with a beautiful and well functioning BBQ. I believe that department members are also excited about renting this site. There are two types of fundraisers I envision for the site. The first (type one) would be promoted by the fire department (the BBQ) and the other (type two) would be rental use of the site for weddings, company functions, school picnics or family reunions. The funds created by the site rental would bring in needed revenue (from $250 to $500 each event) and provide a place for this type of activity in our community. This should be an important part of the lease agreement. Crown Hall and Elk Community Center are sites that bring in funds for their respective departments and meld well with the neighbors. The additions I feel are needed to enhance the site and stay true to the goal are as follows: Plants - 50 more trees along with grass and shrubs for shade, sound barriers and visual enhancement Most trees planted on East side. Water source on the site needed to water plants and trees, fundraiser cleanup and fire protections Building addition onto East Side of firehouse for kitchen and storage of site supplies Commercial grade kitchen for food prep (a must for BBQ) and possible rental Septic system Enlargement of parking lot on South side, Fencing for security of site Envisioned type 1 site uses for the next five years: --------------------------------------------------- Annual BBQ -- second Sunday in June, held outside with food and music Fireman's Fun Day -- unknown date at this time, held outside with food and music Fireman's Ball -- unknown date at this time, held indoors with food and music Octoberfest -- first of October, outside with food and music Flea Market first of May, outside without music, maybe some food Envisioned type 2 site uses for the next five years: ---------------------------------------------------- Outdoor Functions -- limit 20 Per year, with no amplified music, day Use only, no more than 200 people Kitchen rental for cooking classes or small business -- limits not established yet, should be quite and small groups The District and the members of ALRFD must agree or disagree on these proposals as they have yet to see them. Thank you and I wish I could have attended.